tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15163046571275723432024-02-21T07:10:26.601-08:00mi vamijoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-49333759664912298242020-12-31T12:47:00.004-08:002020-12-31T17:09:30.022-08:00Berakhot 2a<p><a href="https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.2a.1?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en">Link</a></p><p>List of people / positions, by Sefaria statement.</p><p>MISHNAH</p><p><b>1</b></p><p>Tanna Kamma - anonymous. Discusses <i>terminus ad quo </i>of recitation. Exists as a separate entity from Rabbi Eliezer who discusses the <i>terminus ad </i><b><i>quem</i></b>, assuming that the punctuation with period is correct. (See gemara's discussion.) Since discusses similar concept to that </p><p>רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר = Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus. Tanna generation 3. Shammaite.</p><p><b>2</b></p><p>וַחֲכָמִים = Anonymous plural Sages, disagreeing with Rabbi Eliezer. These Sages should be contemporary to Rabbi Eliezer, as a disputant. Also, the contemporary Rabban Gamliel is about to discuss their position, so they should be in the present or in previous generations to Tanna generation 3.</p><p><b>3</b></p><p>רַבָּן גַּמְלִיאֵל = Rabban Gamliel II. Tanna generation 3. It is not Rabban Gamliel I (HaZaken) because that is too early, nor Rabban Gamliel III (the son of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi), of the transitional Tanna / Amora generation, as that is not contemporary with Rabbi Eliezer, nor is likely to be included in the Mishnah. The other two, IV and IV, are Amoraim and not in scope at all. This Rabban Gamliel II is Rabbi Eliezer's brother-in-law, having married Rabbi Eliezer's sister. He was appointed Nasi in 80 CE and died approximately 114 CE.</p><p><b>4</b></p><p>בָנָיו = Rabban Gamliel's sons, in the plural. Of his children, a <a href="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6495-gamaliel-ii">Jewish Encyclopedia article</a> (authored by Solomon Schechter, Wilhelm Bacher) asserts that he had a daughter, "who answered in a very intelligent fashion two questions addressed to her father by an unbeliever (Sanh. 34a, 90b)." Examining those Talmudic passages, Rashi asserts that this was the daughter of the Roman emperor, who was Rabban Gamliel's interlocutor, rather than Rabban Gamliel's daughter. The same article asserts that "Two of Gamaliel's sons are mentioned as returning from a certain feast (Ber. i. 2)." The implication is that there may be several more. This reference is to our present passage, but the claim that these are specifically two, and not more, is unsupported by the text. The minimum of plural is two, but not the maximum. They suggest Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel II (who was Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi's father) and Rabbi Yehuda ben Gamliel. These spanned several generation, including the generation of Rabbi Meir (fifth generation Tanna).</p><p>אָמְרוּ לוֹ = this and other explicit and implicit pronouns throughout. Since the conversation is with his mature sons, the conversation occurs in the overlap between generations, </p><p>חֲכָמִים = This statement was either voiced by the Mishnah or by Rabbi Eliezer. It should refer to the same group of Sages as before, namely Rabbi Eliezer's disputants. </p><p><b>5</b></p><p>חֲכָמִים = the same</p><p>END MISHNAH</p><p><b>Commentary</b>: Shema is not tied specifically to <i>korbanot</i> or to established prayers by the Avot, but to a Biblical command. Still, as prayers took the place of the <i>korbanot</i> we could no longer offer, perhaps the concern in establishing these fixed times is expressed well by these early Tannaim who were just post-destruction.</p><p>GEMARA</p><p><b>6, 8, 11</b></p><p>תַּנָּא = the anonymous author of the Mishna who frames the question.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-23242542146804346232020-03-08T19:34:00.000-07:002020-03-08T19:34:57.106-07:00Focus on an Amora: Resh Lakish<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
What kind of information would we like on his bio page?<br />
<br />
In Hebrew & English<br />
Wikipedia Page: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_ben_Lakish">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_ben_Lakish</a><br />
Hebrew Wikipedia Page: <a href="https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A9_%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A9">https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A9_%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A9</a><br />
This has an infobox we can mine.<br />
Jewish Encyclopedia: <a href="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13706-simeon-b-lakish">http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13706-simeon-b-lakish</a><br />
<br />
<b>Full name</b>: Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish<br />
<b>Title</b>: Rabbi<br />
<b>Personal name</b>: Shimon<br />
<b>Father's name</b>: Lakish<br />
<b>Alternate name</b>: Resh Lakish<br />
<b>Alternate name</b>: Bar Lekisha<br />
<br />
Ideally, attach attribution to each factoid.<br />
<br />
<b>Born</b>: 200<br />
<b>Died</b>: 275<br />
<br />
<b>Birthplace</b>: Bostra, east of the Jordan (based on JE link, citing Grätz, Gesch. 3d ed., iv. 240;) There are several places by this name, but it would seem to be this one: <a href="https://www.britannica.com/place/Bostra">https://www.britannica.com/place/Bostra</a><br />
<b>Primary dwelling</b>: Sepphoris: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepphoris">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepphoris</a><br />
<br />
For links to Gratz, see here: <a href="http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Graetz%2C%20Heinrich%2C%201817%2D1891">http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/lookupname?key=Graetz%2C%20Heinrich%2C%201817%2D1891</a><br />
which bring us to volume 4, page 240, here: <a href="https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0000757500&view=1up&seq=256">https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.a0000757500&view=1up&seq=256</a><br />
And available in English here: <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/43057/43057-8.txt">http://www.gutenberg.org/files/43057/43057-8.txt</a><br />
<br />
<b>Teacher</b>: Rabbi Yochanan<br />
<b>Colleague</b>: Rabbi Yochanan<br />
<b>Opponent</b>: Rabbi Yochanan<br />
<b>Relatives</b>: Rabbi Yochanan (brother-in-law, Resh Lakish married Rabbi Yochanan's sister)<br />
<b>Saw</b>: Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi (the Tanna)<br />
According to: Gratz<br />
<br />
<b>Teacher</b>: Yehuda Nesia I (the grandson of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi)<br />
According to: Halevy, Dorot ha-Rishonim, ii. 159a-164a;<br />
<br />
<b>Teacher</b>: Bar Kappara<br />
basis: he transmits many sayings in his name<br />
According to: Bacher: ("Ag. Pal. Amor." i. 340)<br />
<br />
<b>Teacher</b>: Rabbi Hoshaya<br />
basis: he attended his seminary, and he cites (Ḳid. 80a; Me'i. 7b; Bek. 13a), questions (Yeb. 57a), and calls the "father of the Mishnah" (Yer. B. Ḳ. 4c).<br />
According to: Jewish Encyclopedia<br />
<br />
<b>Physical attributes</b>: fat, strong<br />
<br />
<b>Positions</b>:<br />
1) In Sephoris, alongside Rabbi Yochanan and Rabbi Chanina ("Simeon b. Laḳish stood on an equality with him and enjoyed equal rights as a member of the school and council")<br />
2) Next, When R. Johanan went to Tiberias and founded an academy there, Simeon accompanied him and took the second position in the school<br />
<br />
Rabbi Yochanan moved and founded the academy at Tiberias at some point before Rabbi Chanina's death in 250, so we might take this as a fuzzy boundary from position 1 to position 2.<br />
<br />
From Hebrew Wikipedia:<br />
<b>Scholastic generation</b>: A2<br />
<b>Teachers</b>: Listed in infobox, taken from multiple sources: <span style="white-space: pre;"> </span>רבי חנינא בר חמא, בר קפרא, רבי ינאי, רבי אושעיא, רבי יוחנן<br />
<b>Contemporaries</b>: רבי יוחנן<br />
<br />
<b>City</b>: According to Rabbi Reuven Margolias, it was Lakish<br />
<br />
To be continued...<br />
Interactions...<br />
<br /></div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-2479599958699451482020-03-05T15:28:00.001-08:002020-03-05T15:28:13.923-08:00Some excellent Talmud projects out there<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Aside from Mi Vami, there are several other excellent Talmud-oriented projects out there. I present here a short survey of these projects and their strengths. First, of sites presenting the Talmud. I'll update this list on occasion, but here is a first pass.<br />
<br />
1) <a href="http://e-daf.com/index.asp">E-daf</a> has been around for quite a while. It contains the <i>tzurat hadaf</i> - the image of the page - for the entire Talmud, as small images, large images, and occasionally <i>menukad</i> (=vocalized) images. It is aligned to Daf Yomi (a course of study in which people worldwide study the same page and complete the Talmud in seven years), so that the day's page is what automatically loads. A very simple, straightforward interface. The resources are graphics, rather than text that is easily processed, but the <i>tzura</i> is important.<br />
<br />
2) <a href="https://dafyomi.co.il/gemara.php?gid=1">Daf Yomi Advancement Forum</a> - Kollel Iyun HaDaf - has many English resources for understanding each page of Talmud. The two I would deem most valuable, from an NLP / machine learning perspective, are Background to the Daf and Point by Point Summary. <a href="https://dafyomi.co.il/berachos/backgrnd/br-in-002.htm">Background to the Daf</a> has text such as this:<br />
<br />
<div class="def" id="16" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">16<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 1]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">ביאת אורו</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">BI'AS ORO</span>- (a) daybreak on the following morning (<b>RASHI</b>); (b) the beginning of sunset (<b>TOSFOS</b>)</div>
<div class="def" id="17" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">17<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 1]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">טהר גברא</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">TAHER GAVRA</span>- (a) the person becomes Tahor after offering his Korbanos (<b>RASHI</b>); (b) the person becomes Tahor since the required time has passed (<b>TOSFOS</b>)</div>
<div class="def" id="18" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">18<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 3]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">איערב שמשא</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">I'AREV SHIMSHA</span>- the sun is set</div>
<div class="def" id="19" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">19<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 4]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">אדכי יומא</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">IDKEI YOMA</span>- the sun (lit. day) has gone completely (<b>RASHI</b>)</div>
<div class="def" id="20" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">20<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 4]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">מערבא</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">MA'ARAVA</span>- Eretz Yisrael (lit. in the west [of Bavel])</div>
<div class="def" id="21" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; line-height: 22.5px; margin-left: 4em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-top: 0em; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="display: block; float: left; font-family: courier, monospace; font-weight: bold; margin-left: -3.3em; text-align: right; text-transform: lowercase; width: 3.3em;">21<span style="display: inline-block; text-align: left; width: 1.5em; zoom: 1;">)</span></span><span class="ln" style="font-family: courier, monospace; font-size: 1em; margin-left: 0em; margin-right: 0.5em; text-transform: lowercase;">[line 14]</span><span class="defheb" style="color: #0066ff; direction: rtl; font-family: Arial, David; font-size: 1.3em; font-weight: bold; unicode-bidi: embed;">עומד ליפטר</span><span class="hack" style="display: inline-block; width: 0.5em; zoom: 1;"></span><span class="deftext" style="color: #000066; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0em; text-transform: uppercase;">OMED LI'PATER</span>- he gets up to go [away from the table, after his meal]</div>
<br />
In which "difficult" words and phrases are explained. The line number is the line (in the <i>tzurat</i> hadaf) in which the phrase appears, then the phrase in consonantal Hebrew, then a transliteration to English, and then a brief gloss.<br />
<br />
<a href="https://dafyomi.co.il/berachos/points/br-ps-002.htm">The Point by Point Outline</a> has a goal of explaining the <i>shakla vetarya</i> (=give and take, discourse) of the page, and contains text such as this:<br />
<div class="subject" style="background-color: #ffffcc; color: navy; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.2em; font-weight: bold; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 2.5em; text-transform: uppercase; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<div style="margin-left: 2em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
THE TIME FOR SAYING KERI'AS SHEMA</div>
</div>
<div class="indent1" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 2.4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.6em;">(a)</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 4em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">(Mishnah) Question:</span> When do we say Keri'as Shema at night?</div>
</div>
<div class="indent1" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 2.4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.6em;">(b)</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 4em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">Answer #1 (R. Eliezer):</span> The Mitzvah is from the time at which Kohanim may eat Terumah until the end of the first Mishmar (these will be explained).</div>
</div>
<div class="indent1" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 2.4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.6em;">(c)</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 4em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">Answer #2 (Chachamim):</span> The time extends until midnight.</div>
</div>
<div class="indent1" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 2.4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.6em;">(d)</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 4em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">Answer #3 (R. Gamliel):</span> The time extends until dawn.</div>
</div>
<div class="indent1" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 2.4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.6em;">(e)</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 4em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">A case occurred:</span> R. Gamliel's sons came home from a wedding after midnight (they had not said Shema).</div>
</div>
<div class="indent2" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">1.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 5.5em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">R. Gamliel:</span> You are obligated to say it now;</div>
</div>
<div class="indent2" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">2.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 5.5em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
In fact, wherever Chachamim said "until midnight," the Mitzvah (mid'Oraisa) is until dawn:</div>
</div>
<div class="indent3" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 5.5em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">i.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 7em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
Chelev (of Korbanos) and limbs (of an Olah) may be burned on the Mizbe'ach until dawn;</div>
</div>
<div class="indent3" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 5.5em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">ii.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 7em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
Any Korban that may be eaten for one day and a night is permitted until dawn.</div>
</div>
<div class="indent2" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">3.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 5.5em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">Question:</span> If so, why did Chachamim say, "until midnight"?</div>
</div>
<div class="indent2" style="background-color: #ffffcc; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-align: justify; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="nm" style="color: navy; display: inline-block; float: left; margin-left: 4em; margin-right: 0px; padding: 0px; width: 1.5em;">4.</span><div style="font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 5.5em; padding: 0px; unicode-bidi: embed;">
<span class="cl" style="color: #0066ff;">Answer:</span> This is to distance people from transgression (lest dawn arrive before one performs the Mitzvah).</div>
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This might be useful for computing, or else training a discourse model. A similarly promising resource is their <a href="https://dafyomi.co.il/berachos/tosfos/br-ts-002.htm">Point by Point Summary of Tosafot</a>.<br />
<br />
3) <a href="https://www.themercava.com/app/books/metanav/1695">The Mercava</a> is an impressive site. They have the <i>tzurat hadaf, </i>so the user is comfortable with the page. One can click on any phrase in the Mishna, Talmud, Rashi, or Tosafot and see an (aligned) English explanation of the phrase, in context. They have also marked up / color coded the discourse, for Statement, Proof, Attack, Defense, Question, and Answer. In this way, their functionality is quite similar to the Artscroll app.<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjemGXsxb3yE0KP63TC4YVxk4n3Yi3f_lXsFk2gWcKGyTWb1Qy8_wr_RiFtVx66zBBsRYun4hFA_Vl5Ch4B3F3wGZT49vwQ33h_zItBb_w7BtgHExwqlSdEHHXQyufhjCxyh6pHrcwiiUU5/s1600/merkava.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="808" data-original-width="1390" height="231" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjemGXsxb3yE0KP63TC4YVxk4n3Yi3f_lXsFk2gWcKGyTWb1Qy8_wr_RiFtVx66zBBsRYun4hFA_Vl5Ch4B3F3wGZT49vwQ33h_zItBb_w7BtgHExwqlSdEHHXQyufhjCxyh6pHrcwiiUU5/s400/merkava.PNG" width="400" /></a></div>
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4) <a href="https://www.sefaria.org/texts">Sefaria</a> is another impressive site, whose goal is to create an open-source digital Jewish library. Their code and texts are freely accessible / downloadable. (I use their resources extensively, in the form of a MongoDB dump.) They present the Talmud in its Hebrew/Aramaic aligned with the Koren's English translation. Each "statement" has a unique id and can be linked from the outside. They have numerous commentaries which have been aligned with the text, and so one can click on a statement and see, on the side, what that commentator says. They do not present the <i>tzurat hadaf</i>, which would be difficult given the format and desire to present arbitrary commentaries. They recently added punctuation to the first two tractates, and with the help of Dicta,<br />
<br />
5) Al HaTorah has, among its projects, its <a href="https://shas.alhatorah.org/Dual/Rashi/Berakhot/63a.1#m7e1n6">Shas Gadol</a>. Here is a sample page:<br />
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<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiey0mI2fIIt26ZU7JkqjHtBtfTBzmU4ic0EEE9Dxp_IMQ2y9gE9QBnb_BpmTI-24PtcdSBGODGrzQf1vbBB4GT-pUQdUZM45kIT4reyQR_xyuzr2a2BOUXzD4b5_93vzRpjK2TZtr8gejW/s1600/alhatorah3.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="937" data-original-width="1142" height="327" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiey0mI2fIIt26ZU7JkqjHtBtfTBzmU4ic0EEE9Dxp_IMQ2y9gE9QBnb_BpmTI-24PtcdSBGODGrzQf1vbBB4GT-pUQdUZM45kIT4reyQR_xyuzr2a2BOUXzD4b5_93vzRpjK2TZtr8gejW/s400/alhatorah3.PNG" width="400" /></a></div>
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They allow you to customize your daf (just as they do for the Mikraot Gedolot) with the commentators you want. They also have punctuation and vocalization.<br />
<br />
6) <a href="https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=22&daf=21&format=pdf">HebrewBooks</a> has a Shas. For each page, there is a <i>tzurat hadaf</i> via PDF taken from the Neharda Talmud (Vagshal / Moznayim), which is beautiful and resource rich. The text is selectable, but the glyphs don't seem to correspond to Unicode Hebrew text so that is difficult. There is also a Text tab which gives the gemara, Rashi and Tosafot in a simplified form. They have a few meforshim aligned, and clicking on them will load the PDF of that page in the aligned sefer.<br />
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More to come:<br />
7) <a href="https://fjms.genizah.org/?eraseCache=true">Hachi Garsinan</a><br />
8) <a href="https://mefo.otzar.org/#/load">Otzar Hachachma</a><br />
9) <a href="https://www.gemaraberura.com/app/">Gemara Berura</a><br />
10) <a href="https://www.thepeoplestalmud.com/#!">The People's Talmud</a><br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-1362141668926273932020-01-06T06:35:00.001-08:002020-01-06T06:35:40.114-08:00Berachot 3<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Two thoughts on Berachot 3.<br />
<br />
1) The brayta gave three reasons not to enter a ruin: suspicion (of prostitution), collapse, and mazikin (demons). As is his way, Rambam takes the halacha not to pray in a ruin but does not specify the superstitious reason. (He doesn't give any reason.) Yet the gemara outlines three cases (new ruin, two people who are exemplary, who are not so exemplary), and why each reason is necessary. Rambam does not distinguish between these cases.<br />
<br />
2) In a brayta:<br />
וְלֹא זוֹ בִּלְבַד אֶלָּא, בְּשָׁעָה שֶׁיִּשְׂרָאֵל נִכְנָסִין לְבָתֵּי כְּנֵסִיּוֹת וּלְבָתֵּי מִדְרָשׁוֹת וְעוֹנִין ״יְהֵא שְׁמֵיהּ הַגָּדוֹל מְבֹורָךְ״, הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא מְנַעְנֵעַ רֹאשׁוֹ<br />
<br />
See Tosafot and the discussion of how HaGadol as an adjective contradicts Machzor Vitry that Rabba is a verb. Also, about prayers in Hebrew vs. English. However, one thing I learned in Revel was how different Savoraim reworked various masechtot, clarifying the language and sometimes substituting Hebrew for Aramaic. Note the oddity here of HaGadol rather than Rabba, when the preceding word is Shemeih which is Aramaic. See also Masoret Hashas that has that this is girsat Rasha"l, but girsat Rash"a is Shemo, which would be Hebrew. I think there is evidence of a complex editing history, and we can't necessarily derive much from the HaGadol here.<br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-59743117030295625972020-01-05T17:15:00.002-08:002020-01-05T17:15:09.179-08:00Starting Daf Yomi cycle - Berachot 2<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
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One of the points I brought up in my Daf Yomi shiur today (Berachot 2) - the distinction between between siman and sibah. A siman is a sign, an easy way of knowing when something is (e.g. the terminus a quo of Shema). A sibah is a cause, the reason that the recital of Shema begins at that time.</div>
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The setama degemara takes the kohanim coming in to eat terumah as a siman. How so? Because really, it is tzeit hakochavim, and by tying it to the kohanim eating terumah, it teaches us <span class="text_exposed_show" style="display: inline; font-family: inherit;">something along the way (milta agav urcheih kamashma lan).</span></div>
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However, the brayta it excerpts from says "siman ladavar, tzeit hakochavim". It is the starts that is the siman. The implication, to me, is that the kohanim eating terumah is the sibah.</div>
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My favorite idea, one I keep returning to when I analyze midrash halachah and midrash aggada, is the hidden derasha. Sometimes Chazal don't make the derasha explicit, but a close reading of the pasuk and the halacha reveals an underlying derasha. I believe that this is the case for the many positions in the Mishna and Brayta on Berachot 2a.</div>
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בְּשִׁבְתְּךָ֤ בְּבֵיתֶ֙ךָ֙ וּבְלֶכְתְּךָ֣ בַדֶּ֔רֶךְ וּֽבְשָׁכְבְּךָ֖ וּבְקוּמֶֽךָ׃</div>
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Instead of beshivtecha beveitecha, read it as when you accept Shabbat in your house. Thus the position of when Shabbat is sanctified on erev Shabbat. See Iyov 30:17 and especially Kohelet 2:23 for shevet meaning rest from work, especially the poor laborer coming in from work. Thus, coming in from a long day at work and being at rest, during your meal, in your home (beveitecha) is the start time of recital. Rabbi Acha or Rabbi Achai speaks of hesieba, reclining, during a meal. Shochev has many meaning including merely lying down. Tying to a pauper or to a regular person has parallels to the time for recital of the morning Shema, either of a regular person or of a prince.</div>
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So it is not that recital was defined by the movements of heavenly bodies. Rather, it is defined by the movements of earthly bodies - the kohen, the regular person, the pauper. And there might be very fine differences in time when these things happen, and it doesn't need to fit into the rigid systematic slots the setama tried to wedge it into. And there are deep derashot at play, that people aren't realizing. And that is why each is a sibah, rather than a siman.</div>
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-33398088126816544572019-11-12T17:03:00.001-08:002019-11-12T17:03:24.764-08:00Niddah 8a: Rabbi Elazar, Rabbi Eliezer, and Pedat<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Not much to say about this at the moment. I just wanted to mark this daf as important, in the scheme of resolving people and their relationships. There is Rabbi Elazar, Rabbi Eliezer, and Pedat. And it matters who they are here, and that the Pedat in this case is the son, rather than the father, of Rabbi Elazar ben Pedat.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-6554477307703721892019-11-06T13:56:00.003-08:002019-11-06T13:56:35.072-08:00Niddah 14: Rabbi Chiya's brayta: of his youth or old age?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In today's Daf, <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Niddah.14a">Niddah 14a</a> - b, the gemara discusses a reversed position of Rabbi Chiyya. The specifics of that position depend on whether a <i>brayta</i> encodes his initial or reversed position. In turn, that depends on when the <i>brayta</i> was authored. This ties in well to our previous discussion of the triple role which Talmudic scholars play, depending on whom they interact with. We can have Rabbi Chiyya as a student (=in his youth), as a colleague (=in his prime), and as a teacher (=in his old age). In each case, he might interact with different people in his scholastic social network.<br />
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Let us begin with the plain text of the Talmud.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="he" dir="rtl" lang="he" style="text-align: right;">
אתמר בדקה בעד שאינו בדוק לה והניחתו בקופסא ולמחר מצאה עליו דם א"ר יוסף כל ימיו של ר' חייא טימא ולעת זקנתו טיהר </div>
<div class="en" lang="en">
With regard to a similar case, it <b>was stated:</b> If a woman <b>examined</b> herself <b>with a cloth that was not examined by her</b> before its use, <b>and she</b> then <b>placed it in a box</b> without looking at it, <b>and on the following day she found blood on</b> this cloth, the question is whether the blood was on the cloth before the examination and the woman is consequently not impure, or whether the blood is from the examination, and she is impure. <b>Rav Yosef says: All the days of Rabbi Ḥiyya he would deem</b> such a woman <b>impure, but in his old age he would deem</b> her <b>pure.</b></div>
</blockquote>
Thus, Rav Yosef records a reversal of Rabbi Chiyya in this instance, from impure to pure. The <i>setama </i>tries to figure out the extent of this reversal, which makes sense in light of a <i>brayta</i> we will eventually see, in which Rabbi Chiyya argues with Rebbe and says that while she is pure from <i>niddah</i>, she is impure from <i>ketem</i>. The <i>setama</i> records:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
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<div class="he" lang="he" style="text-align: right;">
איבעיא להו היכי קאמר כל ימיו טימא משום נדה ולעת זקנתו טיהר משום נדה וטימא משום כתם </div>
<div class="en" lang="en">
<b>A dilemma was raised before</b> the Sages with regard to this statement of Rav Yosef: With regard to <b>what</b> type of impurity status <b>is he speaking?</b> Does he mean that <b>all his days</b> Rabbi Ḥiyya <b>would deem</b> the woman definitely <b>impure as a menstruating woman,</b> and therefore any <i>teruma</i> with which she came into contact required burning; <b>and in his old age he would deem</b> her <b>pure</b> from the definite impurity status of <b>a menstruating woman, but would deem</b> her <b>impure as</b> a woman who discovered <b>a stain,</b> which is an uncertain source of impurity? If so, according to his ruling from his old age any <i>teruma</i> she touches is not burned but may not be eaten. </div>
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<div class="he" lang="he" style="text-align: right;">
או דלמא כל ימיו טימא משום כתם ולעת זקנתו טיהר מולא כלום </div>
<div class="en" lang="en">
<b>Or perhaps</b> does Rav Yosef mean that <b>all his days</b> Rabbi Ḥiyya <b>would deem</b> the woman <b>impure</b> as a matter of uncertainty <b>due to</b> the <b>stain, and in his old age he would deem</b> her <b>pure from any</b> type of impurity status?</div>
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Next, the <i>brayta</i>:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="he" dir="rtl" lang="he" style="text-align: right;">
תא שמע דתניא בדקה בעד שאינו בדוק לה והניחתו בקופסא ולמחר מצאה עליו דם רבי אומר טמאה משום נדה ורבי חייא אמר טמאה משום כתם </div>
<div class="en" lang="en">
The Gemara suggests: <b>Come</b> and <b>hear</b> a resolution for this dilemma, <b>as it is taught</b> in a <i>baraita</i>: If a woman <b>examined</b> herself <b>with a cloth that was not examined by her</b> before its use, <b>and she placed it in a box, and on the following day she found blood on</b> this cloth, <b>Rabbi</b> Yehuda HaNasi <b>says: She is</b> definitely <b>impure as a menstruating woman, and Rabbi Ḥiyya says: She is impure</b> as a matter of uncertainty <b>due to</b> the <b>stain.</b></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq" style="text-align: right;">
אמר לו ר' חייא אי אתה מודה שצריכה כגריס ועוד א"ל אבל אמר לו א"כ (אתה) אף אתה עשיתו כתם </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>Rabbi Ḥiyya said to</b> Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi: <b>Do you not concede that</b> for her to become ritually impure <b>she requires</b> that the size of the blood stain on the cloth be <b>more than</b> the size of <b>a split bean?</b> If the stain is smaller, it is assumed to have been caused by a squashed louse. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi <b>said to him: Indeed [<i>aval</i>],</b> that is correct. Rabbi Ḥiyya <b>said to him: If so, you too render</b> this blood found on the cloth in the box <b>a stain,</b> which renders one impure as a matter of uncertainty. If you had considered it definitely impure, there would have been no distinction between a small stain and a large one. </blockquote>
This <i>brayta</i> <b>should </b>be ambiguous, but the <i>setama</i> regards this as definitive in one direction. I skip one clarifying statement of what Rebbe's position is. The gemara then writes:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="he" dir="rtl" lang="he" style="text-align: right;">
מאי לאו בזקנותו קאי הא בילדותו טימא משום נדה שמע מינה </div>
<div class="en" lang="en">
The Gemara analyzes this statement of Rabbi Ḥiyya with reference to the dilemma under discussion: <b>What, is it not</b> correct to assume that Rabbi Ḥiyya <b>was in his old age</b> when he disagreed with his teacher, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi? He would not have done so when he was young. And if he deemed the woman impure as a matter of uncertainty in his old age, it can be inferred that <b>in his youth he would deem</b> her definitely <b>impure as a menstruating woman.</b> The Gemara concludes: Indeed, <b>conclude from</b> here that this is the case.</div>
</blockquote>
That is, the <i>brayta</i> was written to record Rabbi Chiyya's position in his old age, after he had reversed himself.<br />
<br />
It is unclear what the <i>setama degemara </i>sees in the <i>brayta</i> to conclude that this was recording his position in his old age. Various Rishonim proffer suggestions. Thus, Rashi says that this is because he argues with his teacher:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" dir="rtl" style="text-align: right;">
מאי לאו בזקנותו קאי - מדפליג עליה דרבי רביה:</blockquote>
To try to elaborate, perhaps this means that until he came into his own as an authority, he would have given way to Rebbe. And disagreement shows that he is old. How old would that have to be? At what point did Rabbi Chiyya come to study under Rebbe? Maybe it just means that the attitude he had to assume to argue means that this would be in his old age.<br />
<br />
Tosafot say:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" dir="rtl" style="text-align: right;">
מאי לאו בזקנותו. פרש"י מדפליג על רבי ואין נראה דמצינו הרבה תלמידים שחולקים על רבם בילדותם ורשב"ם פירש דרבי חייא תחילה למד בבבל ולעת זקנתו עלה ולמד לפני רבי כדאמרינן (סוכה דף כ.) חזרה ונשתכחה עלו רבי חייא ובניו ויסדוה ועי"ל מדקאמר רבי חייא אף אתה עשיתו כתם ולא קאמר אף אתה רבי ש"מ דבזקנותו היה דהוה תלמיד חבר כדאמר בשילהי מי שמת (ב"ב דף קנח:) בן עזאי תלמיד חבר של רבי עקיבא דאמר ליה (שב אתה ולא קאמר שב מר):</blockquote>
That is, they first cite and disagree with Rashi. After all, we often find students who disagree with their teachers in their youth. And Rashbam explains that Rabbi Chiyya first learned in Bavel. And, in his old age (corresponding to the word זקנתו that Rav Yosef employs) he ascended and learned before Rebbe, referencing Succah 20a. And the wording of אתה vs. אתה רבי implies that he interacted with Rebbe as a <i>chaver</i>, a colleague, rather than a student.<br />
<br />
I recall Rabbi Yaakov Elman mentioning work, I think by Christine Hayes, in the interactions of scholars people in the Talmud. Overwhelmingly, they were more deferential to those in preceding generations and more disrespectful to those in the same generation. The consistency of this goes to show that the discussions were a record of a true diachronic discourse, rather than what some people (e.g. those who follow Neusner) assert, that the entire discussion was merely a pious fabrication created at the very close of the period. This idea of Rashbam, looking at the language, seems a similar approach.<br />
<br />
Now some analysis of my own.<br />
<br />
1) We can harness some further biographical information in analyzing this. Recall that Rav Yosef said that "throughout his days he held X, and in his old age, he held Y (the reverse)."<br />
<br />
The <i>brayta </i>encodes not just a dispute between Rebbe and Rabbi Chiyya, but (seemingly) a direct conversation: <span style="text-align: right;">אמר לו ר' חייא</span><span style="text-align: right;"> </span><br />
<span style="text-align: right;"><br /></span>
<span style="text-align: right;">In general, I might reserve judgement as to whether these are actual exchanges, or the putting words into the mouth of a figure, to explain his reasoning. The latter would be the equivalent of אמר לך פלוני, X would say to you. When there are many <i>braytot</i>, perhaps conflicting, as to what one said to the other (see an example a few pages back), perhaps it is not that they are recording parts of a longer conversation, or conflicting recollections of a conversation, or even someone <b>lying</b>. Rather, perhaps the intent was to fill in the imagined, or understood details, and people knew the style. It was as if it were an <i>amar lecha Ploni</i>.</span><br />
<span style="text-align: right;"><br /></span>
<span style="text-align: right;">Regardless, here, there is a recorded conversation. And certainly as the <i>setama</i> understands it, this was a real conversation between them.</span><br />
<span style="text-align: right;"><br /></span>
<span style="text-align: right;">Rebbe lived approximately 135 - 217 CE = 80 years.</span><br />
<span style="text-align: right;">Rabbi Chiyya the Great lived approximately 180 - 230 CE = 50 years. </span><br />
<br />
If we place the dispute of the Rebbe and Rabbi Chiyya at the latest possible point, 217 CE, that means that Rabbi Chiyya would be 37. In Avot, Yehuda ben Tema says:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" dir="rtl" style="text-align: right;">
<span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: David, Narkisim, "Arial Unicode MS"; font-size: 18.9px;">הוא היה אומר, בן חמש שנים למקרא, בן עשר למשנה, בן שלש עשרה למצות, בן חמש עשרה לתלמוד, בן שמונה עשרה לחופה, בן עשרים לרדוף, בן שלשים לכח, בן ארבעים לבינה, בן חמשים לעצה, בן ששים לזקנה</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: David, Narkisim, "Arial Unicode MS"; font-size: 18.9px;">, בן שבעים לשיבה, בן שמונים לגבורה, בן תשעים לשוח, בן מאה כאילו מת ועבר ובטל מן העולם.</span></blockquote>
True, Rabbi Chiyya would not reach 60, the age of <i>zikna</i>, but at 37, he had not even reached <i>bina</i>! Also, he had 13 years left to his life. Would this really be called <i>zikna</i>? Could we really say "all his days he said X" when he reversed himself at age 37?! And that is assuming the most conservative date for this conversation. It could have taken place much earlier! Unless we interpret Rav Yosef's <i>zikna</i> as being inexact, meaning a later reversal from a long-held position.<br />
<br />
2) What is the point in Rav Yosef telling us this? Had he remained silent, we would have have the established <i>brayta</i> (תניא) and known Rabbi Chiyya's position. Rav Yosef's statement has only introduced confusion. Furthermore, Rav Yosef's choice of language would introduce even more confusion:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<span style="text-align: right;">א"ר יוסף כל ימיו של ר' חייא טימא ולעת זקנתו טיהר</span></blockquote>
The simplest understanding of these words is a binary difference between (some level of)impurity and total purity.<br />
<br />
We should also consider Rav Yosef's role as Sinai, an expert in old traditions. There is the phenomenon of Tnei Rav Yosef -- see <a href="https://daf-yomi.com/DYItemDetails.aspx?itemId=39660">here</a>. "Tnei Rav..." occurs 172 times in Shas, Tnei Rabbi Chiyya 49 times, and Tnei Rav Yosef 46 times (mostly aggadic derashot). So Rav Yosef knows <i>braytot</i>, and other supplemental Tannaitic material, outside of the formal official <i>braytot</i> of Rabbi Chiyya and others.<br />
<br />
I think that Rav Yosef is only coming here to help correct a mistake people might make. He knows of the official <i>brayta</i>. People will think that Rabbi Chiyya, while disagreeing with Rebbe, still maintains some level of ritual impurity, namely <i>ketem. </i><br />
<br />
Therefore, Rav Yosef tells us how to understand this <i>brayta</i> that you will surely encounter. All his days -- including this <i>brayta</i> -- Rabbi Chiyya maintains the law that she is impure. But you wouldn't know this -- because it was a very late retraction, in his old age, and therefore not recorded in any <i>brayta -- </i>but Rabbi Chiyya reversed and said she is entirely pure.<br />
<br />
I would therefore respectfully disagree with conclusion of the <i>setama</i>.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-10361752918117809822019-09-19T14:50:00.001-07:002019-09-19T14:50:17.048-07:00Keritut 28: Can Rav have resolved a question on Rav Chisda?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Yesterday, in Daf Yomi, we finished Krisus. There is an interesting emendation there, on <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Keritot.28a">Keritot 28a</a>, from Rav to either Rava or Rabba, which appears motivated by scholastic generational concerns.<br />
<br />
First, the gemara:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<br /><div style="text-align: right;">
אמר <a class="Amora" fullname="Rav Hisda" generation="3" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rav%20Hisda" style="background-color: salmon; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">רב חסדא</a> אין הקינין מתפרשות אלא אי בלקיחת בעלים אי בעשיית כהן</div>
§ <span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"><a class="Amora" fullname="Rav Hisda" generation="3" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rav%20Hisda" style="background-color: salmon; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">Rav Ḥisda</a> <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">says</span>: Nests,</span> i. e., pairs of birds,<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> are designated,</span> one as a burnt offering and one as a sin offering,<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> only</span> in the following manner:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> Either</span> by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> owner</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of purchase or,</span> if the owner did not designate the birds at that stage, by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> priest</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of sacrifice.</span></blockquote>
<br />
Note that Rav Chisda is a 3rd generation Amora. Rav Shimi bar Ashi clarifies Rav Chisda's position, the gemara raises an objection to Rav Chisda based on a brayta. Then:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div dir="rtl" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px; text-align: right;">
אמר <a class="Amora" fullname="Rav" generation="1" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rav" style="background-color: pink; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">רב</a> הכי קאמר ומה במקום שלא קידש הגורל בלקיחת בעלים ובעשיית הכהן קידש השם אי בלקיחת בעלים אי בעשיית כהן כאן שיקדש הגורל שלא בלקיחה ושלא בעשייה אינו דין שיקדש השם אי בלקיחה אי בעשייה</div>
<div style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"><a class="Amora" fullname="Rav" generation="1" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rav" style="background-color: pink; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">Rav</a> <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said</span></span> that<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> this</span> is what the <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">baraita</i><span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> is <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">say</span> ing: And if in a place where</span> the drawing of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> a lot,</span> either by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> owner</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of purchase or</span> by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> priest</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of sacrifice, does not sanctify</span> an animal with a specific designation, and nevertheless a verbal designation of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> the name, either</span> by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> owner</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of purchase or</span> by the<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> priest</span> at the time<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> of sacrifice, does sanctify</span> it with a specific designation;<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> here,</span> with regard to the two goats,<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> where</span> the drawing of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> a lot</span> that does<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> not</span> take place<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> at</span> the time of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> purchase nor at</span> the time of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> sacrifice sanctifies</span> the animal with a specific designation,<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> is it not logical that</span> verbally designating<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> the name, either at</span> the time of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> purchase or at</span> the time of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> sacrifice,</span> should<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> sanctify</span> it with a specific designation?</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
Koren / Sefaria preserve the reading of Rav. Artscroll follows an emendation to Rava and notes an alternate emendation (Shita Meubettzet) to Rabba. The person who gave the daf yomi shiur explained that this was because Rav here doesn't make sense, since Rav was 1st generation and Rav Chisda was 3rd generation.<br />
<br />
Indeed, Hachi Garsinan has these variants:<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
<a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjiLrsF1DGDlUnqSJUINQzZO3gHRf0fg7cJV9eieRLXbGJBVbyPbaM5jZZOGRz499bmJbTE1oN821l48KwXOwsiLOkRN6_ERytdXh91hyhJX3uvnYKZtl5cTUl_dnQlRrvIlumXxtnOyvgN/s1600/gars.PNG" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="189" data-original-width="1600" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjiLrsF1DGDlUnqSJUINQzZO3gHRf0fg7cJV9eieRLXbGJBVbyPbaM5jZZOGRz499bmJbTE1oN821l48KwXOwsiLOkRN6_ERytdXh91hyhJX3uvnYKZtl5cTUl_dnQlRrvIlumXxtnOyvgN/s1600/gars.PNG" /></a></div>
<br />
However, I don't think that <b>Rav </b>is impossible here. Indeed, the graph for Mivami shows that <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rav_Chisda">Rav Chisda</a> was a student of Rav. Rav was his rebbe muvhak, and after Rav's death, Rav Chisda studied under Rav Huna.<br />
<br />
On the other hand, besides chronological feasibility, there is another dimension to this question. This has to do with roles. In some of our disambiguation algorithms (in progress), we look to categorize people (and disambiguate between several people with the same name), on the basis of coocurrence. And one aspect that jumped out was that the same person really has multiple identities.<br />
<br />
For instance, Rav Chisda (who is unambiguous) still has three identities:<br />
<br />
1) the young Rav Chisda, interacting with his teachers<br />
2) the middle-aged (? maybe same as above) Rav Chisda, interacting with his colleagues<br />
3) the old Rav Chisda, interacting with his students<br />
<br />
Here, Rav Chisda (A3, but also earlier) had a position, which was explained by Rav Shimi bar Ashi, who is the generation after Abaye and Rava. So, Rav Chisda is assuming role #3. The anonymous gemara challenges his position based on a brayta. We would expect Rava, who is A4, to resolve this challenge, much more than Rav Chisda's teacher.<br />
<br />
<br />
...<br />
a</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-84147544507591668672019-08-14T06:25:00.004-07:002019-08-14T06:25:45.574-07:00Temurah 25b: Rabbi Eleazar protested directly<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In Temurah 25b, there is a rather telling exchange. As follows:<br />
מתקיף לה רבא ממאי דטעמא דרבי יוחנן אם שיירו משוייר דלמא היינו טעמא דרבי יוחנן דאדם מתכפר בשבח הקדש<br />
<br />
אמר ליה רב המנונא רבי אלעזר תלמידיה דרבי יוחנן ויתיב לקמיה דרבי יוחנן ולא אהדר ליה האי שינויא ואת אמרת טעמא דרבי יוחנן משום דאדם מתכפר בשבח הקדש<br />
<br />
That is, on 25a, Rabbi Yochanan (A2) stated a halacha. Rabbi Eleazar ben Pedat (A3) raised an objection, based on an assumed underlying reason for Rabbi Yochanan's halacha. And lots of turbulence happens from there.<br />
<br />
Ultimately, Rava (A4) objects that perhaps Rabbi Yochanan's underlying reasoning is different, so that the objection is without basis. Rav Hamnuna II (A3). of the previous generation and contemporary with Rabbi Eleazar ben Pedat, fills in that Rabbi Eleazar ben Pedat (A3) was the student of Rabbi Yochanan (A2), and when he objected, he objected while sitting before Rabbi Yochanan. As such, the underlying reasoning was made manifest, and Rabbi Yochanan's silence in response is evidence that Rabbi Yochanan agreed that this was his reasoning.<br />
<br />
This is an excellent example of how knowing who the people are, and how they are related, can make all the difference in understanding the sugya. Luckily, Rav Hamnuna was there to assist.<br />
<br />
In terms of the graphs and identities, I am a bit disappointed with the current version in PROD, in this sugya. We guessed wrong as to which Rav Hamnuna this was, and said it was Rav Hamnuna I, who was A2. Based on his interaction with Rava, Rav Hamnuna II, A3, makes a lot more sense. We also should add this explicit teacher / student relation of Rabbi Eleazar ben Pedat - Rabbi Yochanan, which is missing.<br />
<br />
But changes are on the horizon!<br />
</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-66599480531968081822019-06-20T16:15:00.000-07:002019-06-20T16:15:42.105-07:00Arakin 4: Ambiguous antecedent - to whom did Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai speak?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In today's daf yomi, Arakhin 4, we see the following conversation:<br />
<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div dir="rtl" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px; text-align: right;">
דתנן אמר <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">רבי יהודה</a> העיד בן <a class="" fullname="Bukhri" generation="" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Bukhri" style="background-color: transparent; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">בוכרי</a> ביבנה כל כהן ששוקל אינו חוטא</div>
<div style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> As we learned</span> in a mishna (<i style="box-sizing: border-box;"> Shekalim </i>1: 4) that<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi Yehuda</a> <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said</span></span> that<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> ben Bukhri testified</span> before the Sages<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> in Yavne: Any priest who contributes</span> the half-<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> shekel</span> for communal offerings<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> is not</span> considered<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> a sinner,</span> despite the fact that he is not obligated to contribute.</div>
<div dir="rtl" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px; text-align: right;">
אמר לו <a class="" fullname="Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai" generation="" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabban%20Yo%E1%B8%A5anan%20ben%20Zakkai" style="background-color: transparent; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">רבן יוחנן בן זכאי</a> לא כן אלא כל כהן שאינו שוקל חוטא אלא שהכהנים דורשין מקרא זה לעצמן וכל מנחת כהן כליל תהיה לא תאכל</div>
<div style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi Yehuda</a> added that <span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;">Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said to</span></span> ben Bukhri:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> That is not</span> the case;<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> rather, any priest who does not contribute his</span> half-<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> shekel</span> is considered<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> a sinner,</span> as they are obligated in this mitzva like all other Jews.<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> But</span> with regard to<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> the priests</span> who do not contribute the half-shekel, in order to excuse themselves from the mitzva they<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> interpret this verse to their own</span>advantage:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;">“ And every meal offering of the priest shall be wholly made to smoke; it shall not be eaten”</span> (<a href="http://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus%206:16" style="background-color: transparent; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">Leviticus 6:16</a>).</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
Who is לו in the phrase <span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-align: right;">אמר לו</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-align: right;"> </span><a class="" fullname="Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai" generation="" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabban%20Yo%E1%B8%A5anan%20ben%20Zakkai" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; text-align: right;">רבן יוחנן בן זכאי</a>? The two possibilities are:<br />
<br />
a) Rabbi Yehuda<br />
b) Ben Buchri<br />
<br />
Koren, and therefore Sefaria, get this right. The English translation makes it clear that this second statement is a continued speech by Rabbi Yehuda, and that Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai's reaction to is ben Buchri himself.<br />
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Artscroll, meanwhile, has it as "<span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;">Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> </span><span class="VERB" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;">said to [Rabbi Yehuda]." </span><span class="VERB" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">This seems unlikely.</span></div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-15923969397647753912019-06-18T08:54:00.001-07:002019-06-18T08:54:50.539-07:00Arakhin 2b: Who does Yochanan ben Dahavai cite?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Today, in Daf Yomi, we started Arakhin. In the beginning of Arakhin, the <i>Stam</i> goes through various Mishnayot, asking each time the purpose of the inclusive language of HaKol. On <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Arakhin.2b">Arakhin 2b</a>, we encounter the following:<br />
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לאיתויי סומא באחת מעיניו ודלא כי האי תנא</div>
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The Gemara answers: It serves <span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;">to add</span> one who is<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> blind in one of his eyes,</span> and teaches that he is obligated to appear in the Temple, whereas one who is entirely blind is exempt. The Gemara notes:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> And</span> this ruling is<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> not in accordance with</span> the opinion of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> this <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">tanna</i>,</span> <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi Yehuda</a>.</div>
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דתניא <a class="Tanna" fullname="Yohanan b. Dahavai" generation="4" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Yohanan%20b.%20Dahavai" style="background-color: lime; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">יוחנן בן דהבאי</a> אומר משום <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">רבי יהודה</a> סומא באחת מעיניו פטור מן הראייה שנאמר יראה יראה כדרך שבא לראות כך בא ליראות מה לראות בשתי עיניו אף ליראות בשתי עיניו</div>
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<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;">As it is taught</span> in a <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">baraita</i> that<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> <a class="Tanna" fullname="Yohanan b. Dahavai" generation="4" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Yohanan%20b.%20Dahavai" style="background-color: lime; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Yoḥanan ben Dahavai</a> <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">says</span> in the name of <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah b. R' II'ai" generation="5" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20b.%20R'%20II'ai" style="background-color: cyan; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi Yehuda</a>:</span> One who is<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> blind in one of his eyes is exempt from the</span> mitzva of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> appearance, as it is stated:</span>“ Three times in the year all your males shall appear [<i style="box-sizing: border-box;">yera’eh</i>] before the Lord God” (<a href="http://www.sefaria.org/Exodus%2023:17" style="background-color: transparent; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">Exodus 23:17</a>). According to the way in which the verse is written, without vocalization, it can be read as<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">yireh</i>,</span> meaning:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> Shall see,</span> instead of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">yera’eh</i>,</span> meaning:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;">Shall appear.</span> This teaches that<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> in the</span> same<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> manner that one comes to see, so he comes to appear,</span> i. e., to be seen:<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> Just as</span> the usual way<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> to see</span> is<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> with both of one’s eyes, so too,</span> the obligation<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> to appear</span> applies only to one who comes<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> with</span> the sight of<span style="box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 700;"> both his eyes.</span> This is one possible explanation for what is added by the general statement of the mishna in <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">Ḥagiga </i>2a, according to <a class="Amora" fullname="Ravina (I)" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Ravina%20(I)" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black;">Ravina</a>.</div>
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According to the highlighting, Yochanan ben Dahavai is a 4th generation Tanna. Rabbi Yehuda, who without patronymic refers to Rabbi Yehuda bar Ilai, is a 5th generation Tanna. Is seems strange for the former to cite the latter.<br />
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Meanwhile, Rabbi Yochanan ben Dahavai, at least according to <a href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Yohanan%20b.%20Dahavai">my biographical data</a> (e.g. Who's Who In The Talmud), is a student of Yehuda ben Tema, a 4th generation Tanna:<br />
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If so, the easiest to do would be to add the patronymic "ben Tema", and to assume that the absence is due to scribal error akin to dittography. Repeatedly in the sections above, certain positions were taken to be not that of Rabbi Yehuda, and there, the reference was to Rabbi Yehuda beRabbi Ilai. It is understandable, then, for the "ben Tema" to be accidentally dropped here.<br />
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Looking at the parallel text in <a href="http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/b/l/l4401_004b.htm">Sanhedrin 2a</a>, it appears that they <b>do</b> have Ben Tema:<br />
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<span style="color: #314b77; font-family: "david"; font-size: 20px;">דתניא יוחנן בן דהבאי אומר משום רבי יהודה בן תימא הסומא בא' מעיניו פטור מן הראיה שנא' יראה יראה כדרך שבא לראות כך בא ליראות מה לראות בשתי עיניו אף ליראות בשתי עיניו</span><br />
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It is difficult to say that occurrences in Chagiga, Arakhin, in Yerushalmi, and in the source Tosefta that they are citing all made the same error. Maybe it is just OK to leave out the patronymic, and people would have understood based on context which Rabbi Yehuda was intended; and only Sanhedrin added it.<br />
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This, of course, operates under the assumption that my biographical data is correct.<br />
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Now, looking at <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43957&st=&pgnum=157">Toledot Tannaim vaAmoraim, volume 2, page 547</a>, I see that he has a discussion:<br />
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He mentions that, though in our printed texts in Arakhin we lack it, the patronymic ben Tama does appear in Dikdukei Soferim.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-78590631061380734262019-04-19T06:22:00.002-07:002019-04-19T06:22:46.459-07:00Was Rabbi Yaakov the grandson of Acher?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Yesterday we finished mashechet Chullin in Daf Yomi, and there (<a href="https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin.142a.9-10?lang=bi">Chullin 142a</a>), Rav Yosef asserts that the Tanna Rabbi Yaakov was the grandson of Acher, that is, Elisha ben Avuya,<br />
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As background, while the Mishna (Rabbi Meir) implies that Biblical verses discussing reward of long life for fulfilling precepts were meant literally, about life in this world, a <i>brayta</i> has Rabbi Yaakov explaining this as referring to reward in the world-to-come. According to the Munich manuscript and various Vatican manuscripts, as well as Rashi, the gemara ends there. But there is a <i>haavara</i> -- a transferred sugya -- from a gemara in Kiddushin 39b.<br />
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There, we see an incident of one who was sent by his father to send away the mother bird and died while descending. Thus, the verse cannot be taken literally. The gemara proceeds to suggest that this was an actual, rather than theoretical incident. After a long discussion, the gemara in Chullin ends:<br />
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אמר רב יוסף אלמלא דרשיה אחר להאי קרא כרבי יעקב בר ברתיה לא חטא מאי חזא איכא דאמרי כי האי מעשה חזא ואיכא דאמרי לישנא דרבי חוצפית המתורגמן חזא דהוה מוטלת באשפה אמר פה שהפיק מרגליות ילחוך עפר והוא לא ידע למען ייטב לך בעולם שכלו טוב ולמען יאריכון ימיך בעולם שכולו ארוך:</div>
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<b>Rav Yosef said: Had Aḥer,</b> literally Other, the appellation of the former Sage Elisha ben Avuya, <b>interpreted homiletically this</b> aforementioned <b>verse:</b> “That it may go well with you” (<a class="refLink" data-ref="Deuteronomy 5:16" href="https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.5.16" style="color: #333333; cursor: pointer; font-size: 0.8em; font-weight: 700; letter-spacing: 1px; text-decoration-line: none;">Deuteronomy 5:16</a>), as referring to the World-to-Come, <b>as</b> did <b>Rabbi Ya’akov, the son of his daughter,</b> he would <b>not have sinned.</b> The Gemara asks: <b>What did</b> Aḥer <b>see</b> that led him to heresy? <b>Some say</b> that <b>he saw an incident like this</b> one witnessed by Rabbi Ya’akov, <b>and some say</b> that <b>he saw the tongue of Rabbi Ḥutzpit the disseminator, which was cast in a garbage dump</b> after he was executed by the government. Aḥer <b>said: Will a mouth that produced pearls</b> of wisdom <b>lick the dust? But he did not know</b> that the phrase <b>“that it may be well with you”</b> means <b>in the world where all is well,</b> and that the phrase <b>“that your days may be long”</b> is referring <b>to the world that is entirely long.</b></div>
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This is a great illustration of the motivating factor behind Mi Vami. Elisha ben Avuya became an apostate because of a specific incident, either the same (sort of) incident discussed earlier, or a similar one.<br />
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If so, perhaps we can understand that this personal history was what drove Rabbi Yaakov to his interpretation. As a grandson of Elisha ben Avuya, yet a religious man, he could not take the verse at its surface sense and yet could not dismiss Divine reward and punishment. He grappled with it and arrived at this interpretation.<br />
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However, I would point out that Rav Hyman in Toldot Tannaim veAmoraim dismisses this relationship. He writes:<br />
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That is, he asks where Rav Yosef got this biographical information, since there is no other reference to it in the Talmud. He dismisses the idea that this could have been a received tradition. More compellingly, he points out an incident in masechet Chagiga, where Rabbi Yehuda HaNasiwas approached by Acher's daughter, asking to be provided for. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi expresses surprise that there are descendants of Acher out and about. Yet, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was a <b>student</b> of Rabbi Yaakov, so why would he be surprised. Rav Hyman points out that a parallel Yerushalmi omits the words <i>bar bartei</i>, "the son of the daughter of". He concludes that this was a <i>girsological</i> error, and really the text read <i>bar Karshay</i>, which is the patronymic of Rabbi Yaakov.<br />
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If so, the familial / scholastic relationship has no bearing on the developed positions in this <i>sugya</i>.<br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-61547839599545687402019-01-19T17:02:00.000-08:002019-01-19T17:02:19.683-08:00The aged Rav Avira, and the great Rebbi<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
A curious incident is related on <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Chullin.51a">Chullin 51a</a>, in which Rav Avira appears. This Rav Avira is a scholar from Israel. Rav Safra informs Abaye that this scholar has related an incident and novel teaching from Rabbi (/Rabbi Rabba). Abaye pursues Rav Avira to a rooftop and eventually gets him to relate the novel ruling. Then:<br />
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<span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Rav Avira </span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"><span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said</span> to him : I am a director of assemblies</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> in the study hall. I was standing</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> above the Great <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi</a></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> </span><a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier; font-size: 14px;">Yehuda HaNasi</a><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">, </span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;">and Rav Huna of Tzippori and Rabbi Yosei of Medea were sitting before him, and a needle came before <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi</a></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> </span><a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier; font-size: 14px;">Yehuda HaNasi</a><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> that was found in the thickness of the reticulum</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> protruding</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> from one side,</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> i. e. , the inside,</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> and <a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier;">Rabbi</a></span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> </span><a class="Tanna" fullname="Rabbi Yehudah haNasi" generation="6" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Rabbi%20Yehudah%20haNasi" style="background-color: mediumorchid; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: courier; font-size: 14px;">Yehuda HaNasi</a><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;">turned</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> the reticulum</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> over and found a drop of blood on</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> the outside, parallel to the wound on the inside,</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> and he deemed</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> the animal</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;">a <i style="box-sizing: border-box;">tereifa</i>. And he <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said</span> : If there is no wound</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> on the outside</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> there</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> as well,</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> from where</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> is this</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> drop of blood?</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> </span><a class="Amora" fullname="Abaye" generation="4" href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Abaye" style="background-color: lime; box-sizing: border-box; color: black; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Abaye</a><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> <span class="VERB" style="box-sizing: border-box;">said</span> to</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> Rav Avira :</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> He caused that man trouble</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> needlessly, i. e. , you troubled me for no reason.</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> This is</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> nothing more than</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> the mishna,</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> which states that an animal is a </span><i style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">tereifa</i><span style="background-color: white; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"> if the</span><span style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: #333333; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 700;"> omasum or the reticulum was perforated to the outside.</span></blockquote>
Artscroll has a nice footnote discussing the identity of this "Rabbi" that Rav Avina quotes. Was it really Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi? Footnote 11:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
This is a reference to R' Yehudah HaNasi (Rashi d.h. <i>le'eila miRabbi</i> Rabbi<i>; see though, note 14 below</i>).</blockquote>
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Footnote 14:<br />
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<blockquote class="tr_bq">
[As mentioned above (note 11), Rashi understands this as a reference to R' Yehudah HaNasi, redactor of the Mishnah. It seems strange, though, that Abaye, who lived several generations after Rebbi, should have conversed with a contemporary of Rabbi. Moreover, this contemporary is described here as a <i>tzurba reirabbanan</i>, which is generally understood to mean a <i>young</i> Torah scholar (see Rashi to Taanis 4a, d.h. <i>tzurba reibarabbanan</i>). A contemporary of Rebbi could not have been "young" when conversing with Abaye! Indeed, because of such considerations, the <i>Sefer HaYochasin</i> (cited in Seder HaDoros רב עוירא) disagrees with Rashi, and explains that Rabbi Rabba here does not refer to Rebbi, but rather means "the great one of the generation." Seder HaDorors, however, allows that it might refer to Rebbi, and that Rav Avira lived exceptionally long and was indeed quite old when he spoke with Abaye.]</blockquote>
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You can read this in Seder HaDoros, chelek 2, page 299, <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46819&st=&pgnum=301">here</a>:<br />
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After citing the relevant gemara and the Rashi, he cites Sefer Yochasin, on the letter Heh, for Rav Huna of Tzippori, noting that<br />
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he argues on Rashi who had explained that "Rebbi Rabba" was Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, for how could he before Rabbi as well as before Abaye and Rav Safra. Rather, Rebbi Rabba implies the Gadol HaDor.</blockquote>
Yet, in <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Chullin.54a">Chullin (54a)</a> it states that Rav attended to Rabbi Rabba and Rabbi Chiyya, and Rashi does not comment there anything, for there it is utterly clear that Rabbi Rabba is Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi. Yet, at the end of <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Ketubot.112a">Ketubot (112a)</a>, Rav Avira, Rabbi Chelbo, and Rabbi Yose bar Chanina visit that place, and it is known that Rabbi Yose bar Chanina was a student of Rabbi Yochanan, and Rabbi Yochanan was in the time of Rabbi. If so, perhaps he was long-lived, or there were two people by that name.<br />
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So ends Seder HaDoros. In Sefer Yuchsin, the discussion is actually a bit more extensive that the quote given above. He <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=24723&st=&pgnum=182">writes</a>:<br />
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After suggesting that it refers to the Gadol HaDor, he notes that in the last perek of Rosh Hashana, it is apparent that <b>he</b>, meaning Rav Huna Tziporaah, is a student of Rabbi Yochanan.<br />
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I did a quick search, and we find this in the Rif citing a Yerushalmi,<br />
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רב הונא ציפוראה בשם רבי יוחנן אמר הלכה כר"ג באילין תקיעתא והוא שישבו שם מראש התפלה</blockquote>
It makes a lot more sense that Rabbi Rabba, the great Rabbi, is an appellation for whichever the current great of the generation is. Furthermore, in Eretz Yisrael in particular, the one to see about <i>tereifot</i> was specifically Rabbi Yochanan.<br />
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This is further established based on what Seder HaDoros mentioned, that Rabbi Yose ben Chanina accompanied Rav Avira, and the former was a student of Rabbi Yochanan.<br />
<br />If we wanted to establish the Rabbi Rabba as Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, just how old would Rav Avira need to be? It is a tug of war. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was born in 135 CE and died in Tzipori in 217 CE. Abaye was born in 278 CE and died in 338 CE.<br />
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If Rav Avira stood before Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, let us say that it is in 217. Abaye might be at least 20 years old at the time of this incident, so 298 CE. A subtraction, 298 - 217 = 81. Not exactly a <i>tzurba meiRabbanan</i> if that means a youth. And we might want the incident with Rebbi to be earlier than his final year, and the incident with Abaye -- who Rav Safra calls Mar, meaning master -- to be older than 20.<br />
<br />
Still, 80 to 100 years is not crazily old. It might make a lot of sense for Abaye to pursue a teaching from an elderly Sage about a novel position of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, because this is indeed a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. And the statement that this is the same as the Mishna has greater resonance if it indeed Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, redactor of the Mishna, who said it.<br />
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Yet the Rav Huna Tziporaah seems to be a much better grounding, as a student of Rabbi Yochanan. If we make Rebbi Rabbi into Rabbi Yochanan, who was born 180 CE and died in 279 CE, and have Abaye as a 20 year old, then 298 - 279 = 19 years, in which case calling him a youth ("tzurba meirabbanan") makes good sense, and even if we add a few year at the beginning and end, it makes very good sense.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-22837874969550571632019-01-03T09:08:00.000-08:002019-01-11T09:13:57.741-08:00Ulla’s fellows<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
An interesting Tosafot from last Monday’s daf (<a href="https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin.34a.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en">Chullin 34</a>). First, the gemara writes:<br />
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אמר עולא חבריא אמרין בחולין שנעשו על טהרת הקדש ודלא כרבי יהושע</div>
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<b>Ulla said:</b> My <b>colleagues say</b> that the mishna is referring to the case <b>of non-sacred</b> food items <b>that were prepared on the</b> level of <b>purity of sacrificial</b>food, <b>and</b> the mishna is <b>not in accordance with</b> the opinion of <b>Rabbi Yehoshua,</b> who says: Non-sacred food items that were prepared on the level of purity of <i>teruma</i> assume third-degree impurity, but non-sacred food items that were prepared on the level of purity of sacrificial food do not assume third-degree impurity.</div>
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ואנא אמינא רבי יהושע היא ולא מיבעיא קאמר לא מיבעיא חולין שנעשו על טהרת קדש דחמירי דאית בהו שלישי אלא אפילו חולין שנעשו על טהרת תרומה נמי אית בהו שלישי</div>
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Ulla continues: <b>And I say</b> that the mishna <b>is</b> in accordance with the opinion of <b>Rabbi Yehoshua,</b> and when he said that non-sacred food items that were prepared on the level of purity of <i>teruma</i> assume third-degree impurity, he <b>is speaking</b> utilizing the style of: <b>It is not necessary. It is not necessary</b> to say that in the case of <b>non-sacred</b> food items <b>that were prepared on the</b> level of <b>purity of sacrificial</b> food, <b>which is stringent, that they have</b> the capacity of assuming <b>third-degree</b> impurity. <b>Rather, even non-sacred</b> food items <b>that were prepared on the</b> level of <b>purity of <i>teruma</i> also have</b> the capacity of assuming <b>third-degree</b> impurity.</div>
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מאן חבריא רבה בר בר חנה היא דאמר רבה בר בר חנה א"ר יוחנן מאי אהדרי רבי אליעזר ורבי יהושע להדדי</div>
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The Gemara asks: <b>Who are the colleagues</b> to whom Ulla referred? <b>It is Rabba bar bar Ḥana, as Rabba bar bar Ḥana says</b> that <b>Rabbi Yoḥanan says: What did Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua reply to each other?</b> The differences between their opinions are twofold. First, Rabbi Eliezer holds that one who eats food with first-degree impurity assumes first-degree impurity, while according to Rabbi Yehoshua he assumes second-degree impurity. Second, Rabbi Eliezer holds that one who eats food with third-degree impurity assumes third-degree impurity, while according to Rabbi Yehoshua he assumes second-degree impurity vis-à-vis sacrificial food but not vis-à-vis <i>teruma</i>.</div>
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Tosafot wonders why not say that the “colleagues” refers to Rabbi Eleazar ben Pedat, who said this very think on the previous amud. And answers that Rabbi Eleazar is Ulla’s teacher, not a colleague, giving two examples of Ulla citing Rabbi Eleazar.<br />
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<span style="text-align: right;"> מאן חבריא רבה בר בר חנה - לא ר"ל רבי אלעזר דלעיל דלא הוה קרי ליה חבריא דרבו הוה כדאמר בפ"ק דב"ק (דף יא:) וביש נוחלין (ב"ב דף קכח.) דאמר עולא אמר רבי אלעזר הלכה גובין מן העבדים אבל קשיא אמאי לא קאמר עולא רבותי אומרים ונראה דרבי אלעזר לא קאמר לעיל יותר אלא הכא בחולין שנעשו על טהרת קדש עסקינן והש"ס הוא דמסיים ודלא כרבי יהושע: </span><br />
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While mi vami hasn’t explicitly recorded R’ Eleazar as Ulla’s teacher, we do have the citation relationships when looking globally across the Talmud.<br />
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Chavraya implies to me multiple people, rather than just one. And interestingly, in both cases of this position, these are people citing a previous generation. It is Rabbi Eleazar citing Rabbi Oshaya, and Rabba bar bar Chana citing Rabbi Yochanan.<br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-36008920482147525702018-12-16T09:00:00.000-08:002019-01-11T09:03:36.297-08:00Rav Asi vs. Rabbi Assi<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Chullin.19a">Chullin 19a</a>) it becomes imperative to know the generational information of Rav Asi.<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_5j_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48377633_295590494418356_2356547924231454720_n.png?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=da93c344a26a815fd6a2f0cd5c1c0c08&oe=5CD885B6" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Rav Huna is a 2nd generation Amora of Bavel, and Rav Asi is a 1st generation Amora from Bavel, the leader of the city of Hutzal and a colleague of Rav. As is shown by the color highlighting above. As <a href="https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%99%D7%98_%D7%90">Tosafot remark</a> on the page:<br />
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<div style="text-align: right;">
אמר רב הונא אמר רב אסי. היינו רב אסי חברו של רב כהנא שהיו גדולים דלסבריה דרב לא היו צריכין אבל רבי אסי לאו היינו רב אסי דקטן מרב הונא היה כדאמרי' בהניזקין (גיטין נט:) רבי אמי ורבי אסי כהני חשיבי דארעא דישראל מיכף כייפי ליה לרב הונא: </div>
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That is, we must distinguish between Rav Asi and Rabbi Asi. For Rabbi Asi is a third-generation Amora of Eretz Yisrael, and we would not have Rav Huna (2nd generation) citing him. And Rav Asi is not dependent upon Rav.<br />
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This is all very relevant because this page of gemara contains three statements from Rav Huna. First, there is a sugya in which Rav Huna cites Rav Asi - the <i>lishna kamma</i>. Then, there is an alternate sugya in which Rav Huna cites Rav Ashi - the <i>lishna acharina</i>. Then, there is a sugya in which Rav Huna, citing Rav, argues with Rav Yehuda, citing Rav.<br />
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There is an immediately apparent contradiction between the first Rav Huna (citing Rav Asi) and the third Rav Huna (citing Rav). According to the former, a certain argument between the Sages and Rabbi Yosei son of Rabbi Yehuda concerns where one slaughtered the first two thirds appropriately, in the proper location, and only committed hagrama - slaughter outside of bound in the last third. But hagrama in the first third and then proper slaughter in the last two thirds would be invalid according to everyone. Yet, according to the third Rav Huna (citing Rav), if one committed hagrama in the first third, proper slaughter in the second third, and hagrama in the last third, it would be valid. This is an obvious contradiction.<br />
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Tosafot note this and explain that it is not a concern:<br />
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<div style="text-align: right;">
הגרים שליש ושחט שליש כו' רב הונא אמר רב כשרה. והא דפסיל רב הונא לעיל הגרים שליש ושחט שני שליש התם משמיה דרב אסי והכא משמיה דרב: </div>
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By way of explanation, the first statement of Rav Huna, which declares it invalid, is citing Rav Asi, while the third statement of Rav Huna, which declares it valid, it citing Rav. Rav and Rav Asi can argue with one another.<br />
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I believe that this apparent contradiction between Rav Huna #1 and Rav Huna #3 explains the introduction of the lishna acharina, the variant version of Rav Huna, that is Rav Huna #2.<br />
What happens in the lishna kamma is that Rav Huna (A2) says X, his colleague-student Rav Chisda (A3) objects and suggests Y. Rav Yosef (A3) objects to Rav Chisda, his student Abaye (A4) objects, and Rav Yosef responds conclusively. What happens in the lishna batra is that the original position and reason of Rav Huna disappears, and he instead says what Rav Chisda suggested. And then every other Amora shifts one over in their role and argument, and Abaye (the last) disappears.<br />
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I think someone spotted the contradiction between Rav Huna #1 and Rav Huna #3, and so harmonized it by introducing Rav Huna #2 which is more consistent. I don’t think Rav Huna #2 and #3 are entirely consistent, in that they may differ in their reasoning and therefore application in certain cases. Under the principle of lectio difficilior, the rule of the apparently “difficult” reading being original, it is the lishna kamma which is original.<br />
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See the Rosh who cites this sugya and brings down the second version as Rav Huna’s statement, without attributing it explicitly to Rav Huna citing Rav Ashi. Also, in terms of how people rule, most Rishonim apparently rule like Rav Yehuda citing Rav, except for Rashi who holds like Rav Huna citing Rav, except for Rashba who holds like the lishna kamma of Rav Huna citing Rav Ashi. A salient proof of the Rashba’s position is that the gemara on the next daf says that something is in accordance with Rav Huna citing Rav Asi. And that is Rav Huna #1, rather than Rav Huna #2. And that the setama degemara bothers to say this is evidence that one should rule like him.<br />
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Whether or not that is actually so, I think that this gemara on Chullin 20a serves as a useful checksum - that the setama had Rav Huna #1, rather than Rav Huna #2. This is additional proof that Rav Huna #1 is the original.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-71762554338479963062018-12-11T08:58:00.000-08:002019-01-11T09:00:29.433-08:00Rav Huna Kamma<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In yesterday’s daf (Chullin 13a), there was an interesting interaction between Shmuel and Rav Huna:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_55_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48273088_293366527974086_5758984882562793472_n.png?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=1b9ee4f5238ffd5c6394e1631bdef6f7&oe=5CD3E5DB" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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This is strange because it is an Inquiry interaction (בעא מיניה), which usually happens as a student inquiring of a teacher. But Shmuel is a first generation Amora while Rav Huna is a <b>second </b>generation Amora. And Rav Huna is Shmuel’s student, rather than the reverse:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_55_3" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48358457_293366104640795_4433821028879171584_n.png?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=f0152b14c47829de181ad657350ed005&oe=5CCFBF13" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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<a href="https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9F_%D7%99%D7%92_%D7%90">Tosafot</a> ask this question.<br />
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בעא מיניה שמואל מרב הונא. משמע שהיה שמואל קטן מרב הונא וכן בריש גיטין (דף ה.) ובפ' יש בערכין (ערכין טז:) הוו יתבי רב הונא וחייא בר רב קמי שמואל משמע כתלמיד היושב לפני רבו ובפרק קמא דגיטין (דף יא:) יתיב רב הונא קמי רבי ירמיה ורבי ירמיה חבירו של רבי זירא הוה כדמוכח בנדה (דף כג.) בעא מיניה רבי ירמיה מרבי זירא כו' עד כאן הביאו רבי ירמיה לרבי זירא לידי גיחוך ולא גחך ורבי זירא תלמידו של רב יהודה דהוה משתמיט מיניה למיסק לארעא דישראל ורב יהודה תלמידו של רב ושמואל והיה קורא רבי ירמיה לרב הונא דרדקי (גיטין דף יא:) ויש לומר דתרי רב הונא הוו ומיהו ההוא דערכין (דף טז:) על כרחך תלמידו של רב הוה כדמוכח התם:<br />
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They propose that there were two Rav Hunas, and this Rav Huna is earlier than Shmuel. I need to update the biographical database in Mivami to reflect this, and work on getting the disambiguator online.<br />
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We can find out more about this Rav Huna Kamma on Wikipedia (in Hebrew and in English). He was a Resh Geluta contemporary to Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-90527803315169608342018-12-10T08:55:00.000-08:002019-01-11T08:57:30.102-08:00Introducing Sugyot<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
I am happy to announce the first introduction of Sugyot into Mi vaMi.<br />
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Each individual sugya (short discussion) is recognized, and we produce graphs for just that sugya. In the past, graphs were organized by amud, e.g. Chullin 3a vs. Chullin 3b. But that organization means that, when someone wants to focus only on the relationship between people in a sugya, graphs are sometimes cluttered with irrelevant people. And where a sugya spanned across an amud division, relevant people were being left out of the graph.<br />
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At the moment, on page load, we show the graph(s) for the amud. Thus, for today’s daf (looking at <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Chullin.13b">Chullin 13b</a>), here is the teacher / student graph:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4y_3" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48237085_292711681372904_4188100632705499136_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=bb88627f8c21454f01cff738f0e8147b&oe=5CC6FF43" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
<div class="_h2w _50f8 _50f4" style="background-color: white; color: #90949c; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px auto; padding-top: 16px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap; width: 520px;">
Amud-based student graph</div>
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There is now a button (labelled “Student”) at the start of each sugya (as well as at the beginning of the page, for a sugya spanning amudim). Clicking on that button yields this graph:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4y_4" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48046439_292712301372842_1880954474579623936_n.png?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=5c434b4752d724b0a6faef966d38f439&oe=5CBA3ABD" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
<div class="_h2w _50f8 _50f4" style="background-color: white; color: #90949c; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px auto; padding-top: 16px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap; width: 520px;">
Sugya-based student graph</div>
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We no longer have Rav Ashi, Rav Pappa, and Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira. who were not relevant to the top sugya. And we have included Rabbi Ammi, who is part of the sugya but who only appears on the previous amud.<br />
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Additional buttons for interaction graphs to hopefully be added soon.<br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-18328439935469363182018-12-04T08:52:00.000-08:002019-01-11T08:55:06.382-08:00Moving towards trees<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
The student / teacher graphs and interaction graphs are often better seen as <b>trees</b>. We should really expect the earlier generations of Tannaim and Amoraim to be higher up on the graph and later generations lower.<br />
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In the past, these vertices representing rabbis were randomly placed and the directed edges connecting them pointed in all direction (up, down, left and right). I have a specific tree-like graph structure in mind, and today I announce the first step towards that.<br />
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Here is the graph before the changes, from <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Chullin.7a">Chullin 7a</a>:<br />
<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4l_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47423407_290213201622752_2158503859771670528_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=b6c4ffc35a29b7d3737fdc92b83c4f86&oe=5CBAED32" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
<div class="_h2w _50f8 _50f4" style="background-color: white; color: #90949c; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px auto; padding-top: 16px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap; width: 520px;">
Chullin 7a graph, with edges in all directions</div>
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Here is the same graph, after the introduced changes:<br />
<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4l_3" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47576645_290214318289307_5213094779759362048_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=070e0d47c522ce905f27640d5b641d20&oe=5CC642FC" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
<div class="_h2w _50f8 _50f4" style="background-color: white; color: #90949c; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; margin: 0px auto; padding-top: 16px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap; width: 520px;">
New Chullin 7a graph</div>
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Note how almost all edges are directed upwards, and generally, higher up in the connected component of a graph are the earlier generation. There is still some work to do, but I think this is a marked improvement.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-20796167365426762632018-11-20T08:48:00.000-08:002019-01-11T08:52:42.625-08:00Rav Nachman bar Yaakov and Rav Ashi<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Menachot.102a">Menachot 102</a>) we seem to have an interaction between Rav Ashi and Rav Nachman, and Tosafot, based on biographical information, argues that this is impossible.<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4a_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46513998_284887402155332_8125289838619394048_n.png?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=74ac338b127b3619e64362a454826ea9&oe=5CC64AF2" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Tosafot <a href="https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A7%D7%91_%D7%90">write</a>:<br />
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<div style="text-align: right;">
אמר רב אשי אמריתה לשמעתא קמיה דרב כהנא גרסינן. והוא רב כהנא אחרון שהיה בימי רב אשי כדאשכחן בכמה דוכתי אבל רב נחמן לא גרסינן דרבו של רבא היה ונפטר מקמי רבא כדאיתא במועד קטן (דף כח.) וביום שמת רבא נולד רב אשי(קידושין דף עב:) ואי גרסי' רב נחמן בר יצחק ניחא: </div>
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That is, they change the text to Rav Kahana, and specifically the last Rav Kahana (meaning IV), who lived in Rav Ashi’s time, as we find in many places. Meanwhile, we should not read Rav Nachman in the text, for he was the teacher of Rava, and died in Rava’s lifetime, as we see in Moed Katan (28a); and the day that Rava died, Rav Ashi was born. Thus, they did not live at the same time. They also suggest that we could read Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak in its place.<br />
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To flesh this out a bit further, here are some of the rabbis in today’s daf. Rav Nachman without the patronymic is generally taken as Rav Nachman bar Yaakov:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4a_3" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46485693_284888138821925_8499908280724750336_n.png?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=2df74eb5b602d8777651515adf7a1697&oe=5CCCD605" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Rav Ashi is A6, an Amora of the sixth generation. Exploring the student / teacher graph, we can find a path, as Rav Ashi -> Rav Pappa -> Rava -> Rav Nachman bar Yaakov. But we would not expect a direct relation, across all these generations, even if we did not have the explicit biographical information.<br />
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On the other hand, we do detect one instance of Rav Nachman speaking to Rav Ashi, in <a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Kiddushin.6b">Kiddushin 6b</a>:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4a_4" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46665859_284889285488477_7014103875552542720_n.png?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=bdafe101ed94d0c67dae4ed7010a3be0&oe=5CB89D67" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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This isn’t compelling counter-evidence, since the gemara there explicitly has an alternate girsa (Rav Chanin from Chozaah) which is more complicated than the common Rav Nachman, and which can easily be switched for Rav Nachman, due to orthographic similarities.<br />
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Alternatively, and not just as a girsa switch as Tosafot suggest, it is not obvious that <b>every</b> unadorned Rav Nachman is bar Yaakov, rather than bar Yitzchak. I have encountered some clear counter-examples, but these are instances in which first the gemara gives the full patronymic of bar Yitzchak.<br />
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If we say it is Rav Kahana IV, this also makes sense (though might cause some difficulties on the next amud, in terms of harmonizing with Rav Ashi and Rav Kahana’s conversation there). We have some work we need to do, to fix up the process in mi vami, to tag the right Rav Kahana among the ambiguous choices, but here is their relevant relationship. Rav Kahana IV is one of Rav Ashi’s teachers:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_4a_5" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46479956_284890608821678_3873067770841137152_n.png?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=dc6cbf2e2a86a8e9650c57729a127ca8&oe=5CD1A34C" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-8967219084184939072018-11-08T08:46:00.000-08:002019-01-11T08:48:11.742-08:00Chullin is up! And some of Rabbi Yishmael’s students...<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
I am pleased to announce that we know have Mi vaMi up on masechet Chullin. We rely on Sefaria’s text as a base for our processing, and they follow the Daf Yomi cycle. As Chullin fast approaches, they put the tractate up, and so we updated our data as well.<br />
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Today’s daf (Menachot 90b) contains a brayta with a dispute between Rabbi Yoshiah and Rabbi Yonatan. These fifth-generation Tannaim are students of Rabbi Yishmael. We more often see other fifth-generation Tannaim, Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda, Rabbi Shimon, and Rabbi Eleazar, who were students of Rabbi Akiva. Rabbi Yishmael and Rabbi Akiva work within different frameworks of halachic exegesis.<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_42_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/45593453_279994782644594_4582673346839183360_n.png?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=99d80b39d09350be6f8a19a0bbd80971&oe=5CD60462" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Two students of Rabbi Yishmael</div>
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Indeed, on the next daf, we will see the gemara analyze this brayta in terms of klal ufrat, which is within Rabbi Yishmael’s framework, rather than ribbuy miut, which is that of Rabbi Akiva.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-89613709957671050602018-10-28T08:44:00.000-07:002019-01-11T08:46:33.765-08:00Menachot 79: Once again, ruling like one’s father<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
A few thoughts on today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Menachot.79a">Menachot 79a</a>).<br />
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First, we have two accounts of the dispute between Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus and Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananiah, both 3rd generation Tannaim. One account of the dispute was from Rabbi Meir, and the other was from Rabbi Yehuda. These were both fifth generation Tannaim, looking back two generations at a (fuzzily?) known dispute:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_3x_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44946839_276255666351839_8368000686784249856_n.png?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=3fec62e30c48383cc79ddd5ccca2861c&oe=5CBC90AC" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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It is quite strange to me that Rabbi Yehuda records an elaborate back-and-forth between Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabbi Eliezer about their respective reasonings. This would be no fuzzily known dispute, but a rather clear, definite tradition. It seems far more likely that Rabbi Meir and Rabbi Yehuda were fuzzy about, and therefore argued, about what that 3rd generation dispute was about, either baal mum or piggul chutz limekomo. If so, it would be Rabbi Yehuda (or else the setam of the berayta) filling in the respective arguments, based on assumed reasoning. If so, Rabbi Eliezer’s “silence” at the end should not necessarily be taken as a retraction, as the gemara takes it.<br />
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Next, according to the first lashon of the gemara, it seems extremely strange to have Rava (or perhaps Rabba, depending on girsa), retract, since Rabbi Eliezer retracted. What in the world?! The brayta predated Rabba and Rava, and if they truly based themselves on the aforementioned authorities, Rava should never have taken the position in the first place. Surely he knew about the retraction!<br />
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Next, it is interesting how the girsa is changed, flipping Rabba and Rava. Presumably this is so that the earlier authority, Rabba, should be listed first. See the Rosh’s position about changing Rava to Rabba if he is listed prior to Abaye.<br />
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Finally, this seems to be a trend I am noticing more in Menachot than elsewhere in Shas. Once again, the gemara assumes that Rabbi Eleazar beRabbi Shimon would hold like his father.<br />
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ורבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון סבר לה כוותיה דאבוה דאמר כל העומד לזרוק כזרוק דמי</div>
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And then the gemara asks whether Rabbi Shimon really holds position X, under the assumption that the son’s taking this position commits the father. I will keep an eye for it in other masechtot, to see if it is advanced elsewhere.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-54551210563122302452018-10-21T08:41:00.000-07:002019-01-11T08:44:18.685-08:00Menachot 72: Ruling like one’s teacher<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
Today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Menachot.72a">Menachot 72</a>) provides a great argument in favor of the Mi vaMi approach, that knowing someone’s teachers and grand-teachers will help us understand their position.<br />
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It starts with a statement by Rabbi Yochanan, that Rabbi Eleazar, son of Rabbi Shimon, bases himself on the position of his father’s teacher:<br />
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אמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון בשיטת רבי עקיבא רבו של אביו אמרה<br />
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”With regard to the opinion of Rabbi Elazar, son of Rabbi Shimon , that barley for the omer offering that is reaped by day is unfit, Rabba bar bar Ḥana says that Rabbi Yoḥanan says : Rabbi Elazar, son of Rabbi Shimon , said his statement in accordance with the opinion of Rabbi Akiva , the teacher of his father. “<br />
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It goes on to explain exactly what position of Rabbi Akiva it is. But there is a focus on the familial (father-son) and scholastic (student-teacher) relationship.<br />
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Of course, Rabbi Yochanan’s statement proceeds with an additional prong, that Rabbi Eleazar beRabbi Shimon is also based on an opinion of Rabbi Yishmael (who would be Rabbi Akiva’s disputant.)<br />
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The setama degemara carries on this assumption, that you can figure out a rabbi’s position based on the position of his father or teacher. So, for instance, it points out that Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, a 6th generation contemporary who takes a different position than Rabbi Eleazar here, also was a student of the same Rabbi Shimon (who in turn was the student of Rabbi Akiva)!<br />
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ורבי לאו תלמידיה דרבי שמעון הוא ?<br />
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And tries resolving it by saying that there is a different position of Rabbi Shimon that Rabbi is basing himself upon. But then, the gemara asks:<br />
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ורבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון לא שמיע ליה<br />
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So, throughout this particular sugya, this assumption holds, that halachic position should more or less follow the scholastic relationship. Which, in turn, recommends the Mi VaMi approach.<br />
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Is this really the case, though? There are many, many instances in which a student does not rule like his teacher. Artscroll refers us to Chidushei HaRashba, which we can read <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32294&st&pgnum=109">here</a>, who enumerates a number of conditions for this assumption to hold.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-87575126842806645642018-08-26T08:39:00.000-07:002019-01-11T08:41:38.427-08:00Introducing Biographies<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
A first version of the new biographies feature is now up. Each rabbi’s name in the Talmudic text, besides being highlighted in color (by generation), is now also a hyperlink to a rabbinic biography.<br />
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In this first stage, the bio consists of a graph showing teachers and students. For instance, here is the graph for <a href="http://www.mivami.org/bio/Shmuel">Shmuel</a>:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_3k_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40205787_256782638299142_7621565061848367104_n.png?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=dd77f9071735f2446c8d3e731a3e5167&oe=5CC97F9F" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Teacher / Student graph, with Shmuel in the center</div>
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Additionally, the bio includes a text version of the same, with hyperlinked students and teachers.<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_3k_3" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/40075806_256783181632421_4682394949784698880_n.png?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=9ce0cc060b4b8b9a90c7c415b8e8c59b&oe=5CC43813" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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The plan is to add additional relationships and biographical data in a later stage.</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-80546685703564680212018-08-24T08:36:00.000-07:002019-01-11T08:38:52.144-08:00Why doesn’t Rabbi speak up?<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
In yesterday’s Mishna (Menachot 13b) we see a dispute between Rabbi Yose ben Chalafta and the (contemporary) Sages.<br />
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שחט שני כבשים לאכול אחת מן החלות למחר הקטיר שני בזיכין לאכול אחד מן הסדרים למחר </div>
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רבי יוסי אומר אותו החלה ואותו הסדר שחישב עליו פיגול וחייבין עליו כרת והשני פסול ואין בו כרת</div>
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וחכמים אומרים זה וזה פיגול וחייבין עליו כרת: </div>
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And then, in today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Menachot.14a">Menachot 14a</a>) there is a brayta which records Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi’s opinion:<br />
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הא מני רבי היא</div>
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דתניא השוחט את הכבש לאכול חצי זית מחלה זו וכן חבירו לאכול חצי זית מחלה זו</div>
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רבי אומר אומר אני שזה כשר </div>
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If Rabbi has an opinion, how come he does not speak up in the Mishna he redacted? (Certainly if he differs with both. But also, if he will hold like either the Sages or like Rabbi Meir, shouldn’t he express this.)<br />
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One answer might be that he is trying to have a light touch on the Mishna, either as an earlier extant text before him, or because he wants to primarily present the dispute among the Tannaim of the previous generation, rather than the Mishna being an expression of his own views.<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_3c_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39982831_255712468406159_1196531859501088768_n.png?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=bc424698139f23448e5548319a5a696f&oe=5CC4629E" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; cursor: pointer; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Rabbi as a 6th generation student of Rabbi Yose</div>
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We see from the graph that Rabbi Yose was a 5th generation Tanna, while Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi was of the subsequent generation. The Sages would be of the same generation, meaning fifth generation Tannaim.<br />
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Further, maybe this is why Rabbi often uses the expression omer ani, as he does here in the brayta. This would not just be humility. He wants to distinguish between the corpus of recorded previous-generation disputes and his own view of the matter.<br />
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(As an aside, it seems possible that Rav Huna, by saying that the brayta brought by Rav Nachman in objection was the opinion of Rabbi, is to say that Rabbi has his own opinion, which is neither that of Rabbi Yose nor of the Sages. But the setama degemara assumes that it must be in accordance with Rabbi Yose or the Sages, and asks this, despite the words omer ani.)</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1516304657127572343.post-89408843372863444502018-08-19T08:32:00.000-07:002019-01-11T08:34:31.631-08:00A few steps forward...<div dir="ltr" style="text-align: left;" trbidi="on">
A few weeks ago, I wrote about the refactoring of the mivami process. (This was so that building the graph could happen in about twenty minutes instead of several hours, and so that the building would happen in stages, with the ability to inspect the output at each stage.) That resulted in a few of the nicer features (such as the local and global interaction graphs) temporarily disappearing.<br />
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We have further developed the code since then. Now, not only are the two interaction graphs back online, there are two new exciting developments.<br />
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Here is a global relationship graph from today’s daf (<a href="http://www.mivami.org/talmud/Menachot.9a">Menachot 9a</a>) to illustrate:<br />
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<img alt="" class="_h2z _297z _usd img" id="u_35_2" src="https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39581374_251529278824478_7518515288745181184_n.png?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=26c1f2cace279e4c8724e845c1fed8f6&oe=5CC9B389" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; color: #1d2129; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 14px; max-height: 700px; max-width: 700px; text-align: center; white-space: pre-wrap;" /><br />
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Global relationship graph, Menachot 9a</div>
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#1: We carry over the generational information from the student/teacher graph. Thus, we see Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananya (rather than plain Rabbi Yehoshua, which is what appears in the text), together with the generation tag of T3 (third generation Tanna). Because we have these generation tags, nodes are no longer randomly colored, but are colored by generation, as per the legend.<br />
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#2: Where there is more that one relationship between rabbi1 and rabbi2, the labels for the edges no longer overlap, as they did in the past. Instead, they appear as a comma-separated list.<br />
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More to hopefully come soon!</div>
joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com0